Checking Out: Bad Manners or Just Bad Poker By Matthew Maroon
Recently I was playing in a game of Texas Hold'em when a situation I often hear people complain about came up. There were three players in after the flop, we'll call them players A, B, and C. Player A checked and player B then threw his hand away instead of just checking and remaining in the pot, a play often called "checking out". Player C then bet and player A threw his hand away and immediately began berating player B for checking out, because player C was given an unfair advantage. Player A's argument was that when it was his turn to act he had no idea that player B was going to fold, where as player C knew that B had folded. Had B checked, C would not have known whether B would have folded, called or raised, and as a result would possibly have checked, allowing player A to remain in and maybe even win the pot.
Quite often at tables and in poker literature or websites I hear or read about how much people hate it when players check out. They write articles, or even berate players at the table for doing so. I just do not understand why. If we examine the issue logically we come to the inevitable conclusion that players should not be discouraged from checking out. Let me explain.
First of all checking out is bad poker. How many times have we seen every player check on every street, and some crummy holding like jack high win on the river. Or someone get checked into trip deuces and win. It certainly happens. So by checking rather than just folding you have some chance to win. When you check out you have absolutely zero chance to win and are therefore, in the long run, quite literally giving away money.
It is also bad poker because it gives away information. Suppose you have a player who decides after looking at each flop whether or not he wants to continue. If he does not wish to continue he folds, whether the pot has been bet or not. Is that not an ideal opponent? If he checks you know he has a hand he considers worth a bet and therefore you would not bluff at him. If he has nothing he spares you the trouble of bluffing, he simply gives the pot away. He does not take free chances to draw out on you when you have nothing as well.
"But checking out gives some players an unfair advantage over others." I hear that one all the time. The fact is people who say this are forgetting that poker is a long term game. Yes in my above example player C was given an unfair advantage, no doubt. But in the long term no player is given an unfair advantage over others by players checking out for the simple reason that seating is more or less random. Throughout your poker career you will be in player A's position roughly the same amount of times you are in player C's position. Not to mention the fact that if you noticed a player constantly checking out at your table you could eventually move to a seat after him, thus giving yourself and advantage. And you could adapt your strategies by check raising more when in a three way pot with that player acting after you.
Let's face it, in almost all poker games checking out is a perfectly legal move. I have yet to see a cardroom rule sheet that said a player may not fold if no one has yet bet. "But it is bad etiquette to check out." you say? Then would it not be hypocritical to berate a player for checking out? In our society berating someone for a breach of etiquette is a breach of etiquette itself. If you are at a restaurant with friends and one of them talks with food in their mouth do you say anything to them? If you are on a date and the person you are with yawns without covering his or her mouth do you tell them how rude you think it is? Not if you want another date. We are all guilty of bad manners at some point, but when we are we surely would not like for others to point it out publicly. Perhaps player B isn't feeling well, or just didn't realize there was a player left to act.
So next time you are in player A's situation (and anyone who plays many hours of poker will undoubtedly be in that situation numerous times) just think about it the way you would a bad beat. Yeah, it is unlucky that you were in that situation. But the person who put you in that situation is just trying to give you his money. And unlike a bad beat you, the tight aggressive player, will actually benefit from checking out as often as you are hurt by it. In fact, using your keen powers of adaptation (and lightning fast seat changing reflexes) you will often benefit from player B's bad poker. So rather than being rude and berating a player for his bad poker, just take it with a grain of salt. And remember that discouraging players from playing badly is in itself a form of playing badly. And you don't want to play badly, do you?
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Distribution: Operators of Online Poker Player Ranking Sites
To ensure player privacy regarding certain player statistics and financial information gathered by websites (hereinafter Service Operator) that collect and organize PokerStars players results by various means, PokerStars has devised the following rules with which such Service Operators must comply:
1. No player profitability data (i.e. ROI, net profit, etc) may be displayed on any player unless the player has explicitly opted into such display by transferring $0.03 to a prominently published PokerStars account owned by the Service Operator. This request must be acknowledged by the Service Operator by sending the $0.03 back to the player as confirmation within a reasonable time frame not to exceed 5 days.
2. Any player may choose to completely opt out of having any information about them displayed on the Service. To do so, player will transfer $0.01 to the service operators PokerStars account. This request must be acknowledged by the Service Operator by sending the $0.01 back to the player as confirmation within a reasonable time frame not to exceed 5 days. Note that the amount here is different, in order to distinguish an opt-out request from an opt-in request.
3. The use of the transfer from user to Service and back again method for opt-in and opt-out is required. This method permits these requests to be handled privately and securely without the disclosure of the players Email, real name, or other private information. Only the players PokerStars User ID is required.
4. Both the opt-in and opt-out options must be prominently displayed on the main / front page of the Service (at minimum, a normal-sized link on the front page to a more complete description elsewhere).
5. If the services operation pre-dates the establishment of these guidelines, there shall be no grandfather clause for existing data. 100% of historical profitability data must be removed from view until such time as a player explicitly opts in as above.
Any Service Operator found to be in violation of these rules risks having their access to PokerStars game client restricted and/or the service impeded, including but not limited to the warning of players who access the Service while the PokerStars client is open.
Last edited by Nem on Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top UKpokermistro Quads
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 1911
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: ...
Last edited by UKpokermistro on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Grumbledook Moderator
Joined: 25 Dec 2003 Posts: 12919
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: not unless the players opt in
though i can't see people doing that to be honest
Wolfe
from: Peridot, AZ Post #5120
...
Last edited by UKpokermistro on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Grumbledook Moderator
Joined: 25 Dec 2003 Posts: 12919
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: not unless the players opt in
though i can't see people doing that to be honest
Chand
from: Porter Corners, NY Post #7821
not unless the players opt in
though i can't see people doing that to be honest
Tasos
from: Slickville, PA Post #5224
...
Last edited by UKpokermistro on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Grumbledook Moderator
Joined: 25 Dec 2003 Posts: 12919
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: yes
Karlie
from: Cambridge, ME Post #7578
yes
Reynaldo
from: Cherokee, NC Post #7807
...
Last edited by UKpokermistro on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top balloo Full House
Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 1195
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: I have been waiting for this for a while. I am sure Full Tilt will do the same.
It is in a way an intrusion on peoples privacy. I highly doubt any of the pro's playing on full tilt enjoy their downswings and upswings being common knowledge.
Shannon
from: Ventnor City, NJ Post #7758
I have been waiting for this for a while. I am sure Full Tilt will do the same.
It is in a way an intrusion on peoples privacy. I highly doubt any of the pro's playing on full tilt enjoy their downswings and upswings being common knowledge.
Josefina
from: Leavenworth, WA Post #5866
balloo wrote: I have been waiting for this for a while. I am sure Full Tilt will do the same.
It is in a way an intrusion on peoples privacy. I highly doubt any of the pro's playing on full tilt enjoy their downswings and upswings being common knowledge.
IMO they should allow sharkscope, poker db. But not the cash game dm sites like highstakes pokerdb etc...
Ramiro
from: Haynesville, LA Post #8670
IMO they should allow sharkscope, poker db. But not the cash game dm sites like highstakes pokerdb etc...
Wilbert
from: Erbacon, WV Post #8148
...
Last edited by UKpokermistro on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Nem Moderator
Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 15362
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: UKpokermistro wrote: Nemesis wrote: balloo wrote: I have been waiting for this for a while. I am sure Full Tilt will do the same.
It is in a way an intrusion on peoples privacy. I highly doubt any of the pro's playing on full tilt enjoy their downswings and upswings being common knowledge.
IMO they should allow sharkscope, poker db. But not the cash game dm sites like highstakes pokerdb etc...
i agree with balloo
What about THM DB? Ban that too??!1
Nadage
from: Mineral Point, MO Post #8580
UKpokermistro wrote: Nemesis wrote: balloo wrote: I have been waiting for this for a while. I am sure Full Tilt will do the same.
It is in a way an intrusion on peoples privacy. I highly doubt any of the pro's playing on full tilt enjoy their downswings and upswings being common knowledge.
IMO they should allow sharkscope, poker db. But not the cash game dm sites like highstakes pokerdb etc...
i agree with balloo
What about THM DB? Ban that too??!1
Baseerat
from: Tylersport, PA Post #9896
IMO they should allow sharkscope, poker db. But not the cash game dm sites like highstakes pokerdb etc...
i agree with balloo
What about THM DB? Ban that too??!1
Allyson
from: Moscow, PA Post #8552
i agree with balloo
What about THM DB? Ban that too??!1
Ronny
from: Flora, IN Post #9302
What about THM DB? Ban that too??!1
Elyssa
from: Oxford, IA Post #6731
...
Last edited by UKpokermistro on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Rmaccov Straight Flush
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 3990 Location: Scotland Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: I think winning players will be happy to have their data available but not losing players maybe.
Personally my sharkscope stats are decent so I'm happy for people to check me out when we're playing. Not as a way of bragging but people are more likely to respect your betting and stuff.
Chey
from: Valencia, CA Post #8390
I think winning players will be happy to have their data available but not losing players maybe.
Personally my sharkscope stats are decent so I'm happy for people to check me out when we're playing. Not as a way of bragging but people are more likely to respect your betting and stuff.
Alida
from: Ponte Vedra, FL Post #7071
The stats sites have been running relatively unimpeded for years but I think what's really buggered it up now is the recent attempts to profit from the farmed data.
Sharkscope has given access to ROI free of charge via their little graphs, but the pokerdb charges a subscription for you to look at it (otherwise you can only see players' winning performances). As far as I am aware (tell me if I am wrong) this has only started happening since Bluff Magazine ate it up.
Areej
from: Mc Kean, PA Post #7859
...
Last edited by UKpokermistro on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Les Epinards D'Amour Straight
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 Posts: 211
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: UKpokermistro wrote: also,
hendon mob database doesnt show how much you have lost either.
It'd be virtually impossible. You'd need the entire entry list for every tournament, not just the prize list. Getting that in a B&M tournament is a completely different prospect from getting it for an online one.
Also, to be completely accurate it'd have to take into account who backed who when (e.g. credit all Dutch Boyd's recent winnings to Cliff Josephy and all TJ Cloutier's to Lyle Berman; take 10k off Roland De Wolfe because he bought Jen Mason into the WSOP, etc.), and to be completely accurate one should also factor in nipping.
Lyn
from: Naples, NY Post #6993
UKpokermistro wrote: also,
hendon mob database doesnt show how much you have lost either.
It'd be virtually impossible. You'd need the entire entry list for every tournament, not just the prize list. Getting that in a B&M tournament is a completely different prospect from getting it for an online one.
Also, to be completely accurate it'd have to take into account who backed who when (e.g. credit all Dutch Boyd's recent winnings to Cliff Josephy and all TJ Cloutier's to Lyle Berman; take 10k off Roland De Wolfe because he bought Jen Mason into the WSOP, etc.), and to be completely accurate one should also factor in nipping.
Tarian
from: Long Lane, MO Post #8731
It'd be virtually impossible. You'd need the entire entry list for every tournament, not just the prize list. Getting that in a B&M tournament is a completely different prospect from getting it for an online one.
Also, to be completely accurate it'd have to take into account who backed who when (e.g. credit all Dutch Boyd's recent winnings to Cliff Josephy and all TJ Cloutier's to Lyle Berman; take 10k off Roland De Wolfe because he bought Jen Mason into the WSOP, etc.), and to be completely accurate one should also factor in nipping.
